A beginner's work in progress.......
Is it going to be a fair trial?
Published on September 25, 2005 By dabe In Politics
Saddam's trial begins on October 19, 2005. It's going to get very interesting, because in order for him to put on any kind of appropriate defence, he will have to bring up some things that our government likely wishes would not be brought up. But, the defence team, if they are going to provide a vigorous defense, must insist upon some historical facts. Of course, none of these thing will actually serve to condone the atrocities committed by Saddam, but he will drag down some significant American politicians in his efforts. And, rightly so.

I truly believe that some of the dirt on our US administration, and their knowledge both before and after the fact, and their tacit dismissal at that time, are likely going to make the neocons really uncomfortable. Sure the trial will begin on October 19th (if there are no further delays), but it is going to be a long drawn out affair. The questions I have are: Will the dubya neocon dummies do everthing possible to withhold evidence? Will Renquist or Cheney or any of these other conniving scumbags testify? Will Saddam survive long enough through the trial to get the entire story out? I suspect that the answer to these questions will likely be "no", but time will tell. I have provided one article, an opinion column that speaks exactly on some of these thoughts. No, it's not conspiracy theory. It's real history, which some people here dismiss entirely because it doesn't suit their simpleton explanations of life.

As for some of the lowlife scumbag racist bitches at JU that have nothing to do with their wasted lives, but lie in wait, looking for anything to get over their blogstipation so that they can write long, hateful, disgusting, stupid, evil and racist crap, may you rot in hell. But, before you do, I invite you to read this. You might just learn something, you sorry ass hypocritic bitch.

Who will testify at Saddam's trial?

Joe Conason - The New York Observer

12.17.03 - President George W. Bush and the provisional Iraqi authorities have promised that before Saddam Hussein is executed, he will most certainly receive a fair trial. Conveniently enough, the Iraqis set up a war-crimes tribunal in Baghdad for this purpose just last week. So sometime after Saddam's Army interrogators are finished sweating the old monster, the preparations shall begin for what promises to be a courtroom spectacular.

Advocates of human rights and international law hope that the prosecution of Saddam will improve somewhat upon his regime's standard of criminal justice, which generally entailed horrific torture followed by confession and punishment. They have urged that Saddam's trial be conducted with complete fairness and transparency. Ahmed Chalabi, the Pentagon's favorite member of the Iraqi Governing Council, says that Saddam must be afforded the lawful treatment he denied his victims.

Those laudable aims presumably require that he be permitted to defend himself legally, no matter how indefensible he actually is. Human Rights Watch, which demanded action against Iraqi atrocities before such concerns became fashionable in Washington, now insists that the captured dictator "must be allowed to conduct a vigorous defense that includes the right to legal counsel at an early stage."

Apart from blaming his underlings for the genocidal crimes on his indictment, what defense can he (or his lawyers) offer? Following in the style of Slobodan Milosevic, he may well wish to spend his final days on the public stage bringing shame to those who brought him down.

Unfortunately, it isn't hard to imagine how he might accomplish that if he can call witnesses and subpoena documents.

Charged with the use of poison gas against Kurds and Iranians during the Iran-Iraq war, Saddam could summon a long list of Reagan and Bush administration officials who ignored or excused those atrocities when they were occurring.

An obvious prospective witness is Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld, who acted as a special envoy to Baghdad during the early 1980's. On a courtroom easel, Saddam might display the famous December 1983 photograph of him shaking hands with Mr. Rumsfeld, who acknowledges that the United States knew Iraq was using chemical weapons. If his forces were using Tabun, mustard gas and other forbidden poisons, he might ask, why did Washington restore diplomatic relations with Baghdad in November 1984?

As for his horrendous persecution of the Kurds in 1988, Saddam could call executives from the banks and defense and pharmaceutical companies from various countries that sold him the equipment and materials he is alleged to have used. He might put former President George Herbert Walker Bush on the witness stand and ask, "Why did your administration and Ronald Reagan's sell my government biological toxins such as anthrax and botulism, as well as poisonous chemicals and helicopters?"

Saddam could also subpoena Henry Kissinger, whose consulting firm's chief economist ventured to Baghdad in June 1989 to advise the Iraqi government on restructuring its debt. "After my forces allegedly murdered thousands of Kurdish civilians in 1988," he might inquire, "why would you and other American businessmen want to help me refinance and rearm my government?"

Indeed, Saddam could conceivably seek the testimony of dozens of men and women who once served in the Reagan and Bush administrations, starting with former Secretary of State George Shultz, and ask them to explain why they opposed every Congressional effort to place sanctions on his government, up until the moment his army invaded Kuwait during the summer of 1990. Pursuing the same general theme, he might call Vice President Dick Cheney, who sought to remove sanctions against Iraq when he served as the chief executive of Halliburton Corp.

The long, shadowy history of American relations with Saddam would be illuminated not only through witness testimony but literally thousands of documents in U.S. government files. Memos uncovered by the National Security Archive show that Reagan and Bush administration officials knew exactly how the Iraqi government was procuring what it needed to build weapons of mass destruction, including equipment intended for construction of a nuclear arsenal.

From time to time, during those crucial years when Saddam consolidated his power and prepared for war, U.S. diplomats issued rote condemnations of his worst actions. Then, as the record shows, they would privately reassure Saddam that the United States still desired close and productive relations. The other governments that were Saddam's accomplices include both opponents and supporters of this administration's pre-emptive war -- from France, Germany and Russia, to Japan, Italy and the United Kingdom.

Pertinent as these issues are to Saddam's case, they do not mitigate his record of murder and corruption. And the man dragged from his pathetic hideout near Tikrit hardly seems to possess the will or the capability to raise them. Either way, he will get what he deserves. Yet it will be hard to boast that justice and history have been fully served if his foreign accomplices escape their share of opprobrium.

COPYRIGHT (c) 2003 THE NEW YORK OBSERVER

Comments (Page 2)
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on Sep 26, 2005
that was not the impression I got


The key word there is 'impression'. You weren't privy to the 'behind the scenes' goings on. I was, as was Tex. As I recall, Adrian said some pretty nasty stuff to me too...but I don't see you accusing me of trying to break up Tex's marriage.

Don't jump to conclusions based on a few comments on a third party thread.
on Sep 26, 2005
Don't jump to conclusions based on a few comments on a third party thread.


ok Karen...I will withdraw all of my remarks on this subject.
on Sep 26, 2005
Wow. It hurts me to read this. I agree with a lot of what you say, Dabe, but this is just.....wow.


It's really quite interesting, really, and like I posted to TW, you seem to have no qualms about the crap that some here, the bitch, like to post about me. What's the deal? Do you, like TW, hold different people to different standards? Are you suggesting that having this double standard is appropriate? Do you also hold some people to "lower" standards? I really do not get it.

But, one thing I do know........ I call it like I see it. And, I am not retracting any of that. Sorry if it offends you, Dharma. It was never directed at you.

the whole tone of this post suggest you are salivating that the united states MIGHT get dragged through the mud, dabe.


I've already explained myself above. I'm not going to do it again.
on Sep 26, 2005

Dabe, I have tried to give you the benefit of the doubt, but the fact is that you take an article that was fighting your *views* and then create an article that is attacking a *person*.  You obviously do not have the ability to see the difference.  All articles on the forums are moderated and have to abide by the terms of service.  For now, you are back on confinement.  If you continue, since this is far from your first offense, we will have no option but to ban you.

Manopeace, you comment to Tex was inappropriate and off topic (unless the topic is simply Little_Whip) which is a blatant act of trolling.  Please refrain from this behavior in the future.  

on Sep 26, 2005
Karma:

Please don't ban her; I get so much enjoyment out of reading her stuff, no matter how vile, venom-filled and hateful. After all, laughter is the best medicine.
on Sep 26, 2005
My comments to Tex have been deleted. I apologise for them. I was wrong.
on Sep 26, 2005
At the risk of further diverting this thread...

Interesting. I'm sure sabrina is reading this. Makes me wonder what would go through her mind, (not that I really care enough to un-blacklist her), given that she is held to a lower standard by her "dear friend".


Interesting, that she's blacklisted, and can't reply to let you know what she thinks of the way I view her.

Secondly, as much as I'd like to think that I could have some infuence around her, that is never going to happen either. I am who I am, and one thing I am not is a chameleon.


Then why bother? What's the point? Do you like abuse? I mean, why post all this stuff and cloak it in venom when you know that it's not going to have any impact?

I only post because I feel compelled to counter idiotic arguments, and frankly, I know it really annoys some people here no end. But, I'll likely never influence them.


So, in the interest of PEACE, you want to stir up shit? I don't quite understand how that works.

Maybe that's why I like myrrander so much. We both have this mindset of being right in people's faces, insulting? you bet? but only because of the insulting arrogance of the neocon lovers here. It has become somewhat of a game.


Dabe...you are NO Michael.

Obviously, we cannot dictate who eachothers' friends are, and friendships are very emotional things. But, whip is a hateful, racist, bag of misplaced wind, and for the life of me, I cannot understand what someone like you sees in her. But, that's not my call. It's yours


Haha, and in an example of one of the many ways in which you are UNLIKE Michael...he respects my friendships and choices and does not judge me. I try to afford him the same respect.

How can you, someone who only knows Sabrina from primarily political postings, claim to know her as she "really" is and condemn me for a friendship with someone who I know in a personal relationship?

You view her as a caricature. You're not interested in Sabrina the woman...Sabrina who has seen horror and experienced tragedy and whose life experiences have left her a bit jaded and yet still manages to be a sincere, caring, honest, and loyal friend.

Hateful. Is it hateful that she consoled me into the wee hours of the night? Is it hateful that she not once condemned me? Is it hateful that she listened and never pushed me in one direction or the other, but provided me with a steadfast sounding board so that I could find my own way?

Racist. For all her questionable talk, I'd place the actual, helpful, day-to-day things she's done for black people (and any other people she's come into contact with) against that of most of the people here on JU. Actions speak louder than words.

Bag of misplaced wind. Sabrina has had a life rich with diverse experience. Is there some reason why she shouldn't share her thoughts and wisdom? A lot of people feel the same way about you ("bag of misplaced wind") does that mean that Manopeace or Michael shouldn't befriend you?

Do I hold you to a higher standard than some others here? Yeah, most decidedly.


And that's fine with me. I make a lot of mistakes, but I try to be a decent person. You can expect that of me.

But, I also see you as someone who dismisses quite a bit in order to be liked by people. You're a lot more tolerant than I'll ever be, that's for sure.


I think you hit on something very key here. Yes, I want to be liked by others. Acceptance is a strong human drive. But more than that, I am TOLERANT. That's not a bad thing. And what better way to promote tolerance than by example?

And maybe with a touch of insecurity.


Sure, I'm insecure. I'll own up to that. I'm human. And I'm very young. So I worry a lot about the image I'm projecting, on JU and otherwise.

It's on you, and I'm not a shrink.


Hahaha...I don't think any of the things you've mentioned require the attention of a shrink, but thanks for caring.

But, I gotta ask, don't you find her just a tad disgusting? Really, this obsession with milk duds is whacked. And obscene.


No more disgusting than a lot of the vulgar things you've posted. I'm not so dainty that I don't enjoy a good joke.

Manopeace: Since you have deleted your comments (and I appreciate that), I will have to clarify based on context clues.

The key word there is 'impression'. You weren't privy to the 'behind the scenes' goings on. I was, as was Tex. As I recall, Adrian said some pretty nasty stuff to me too...but I don't see you accusing me of trying to break up Tex's marriage.


Sabrina NEVER. ever. ever. did ANYTHING to interfere with my marriage. Saying that someone actively attempted to break up a family is a HUGE charge, and not something that should be thrown around lightly.

My husband was not himself during the deployment and did some messed up things. One of those "messed up things" was to wage an all out verbal attack on Karen (scapegoat for his anger). This had nothing to do with Sabrina. If you know anything about her, you know that her philosophy about such things is to never get involved or come between feuding spouses. Sabrina had no contact with Adrian. AT ALL.

What you have accused Sabrina of doing is the EXACT OPPOSITE of what she did.

I want to make that crystal clear.

My comments to Tex have been deleted. I apologise for them. I was wrong.


I thank you for that. However, you're apologizing to the wrong person. Sabrina was the one who was slandered, and the apology should go to her.

dharma: Thank you so much for helping to clear this up.
on Sep 26, 2005
hey dabe, sorry yer grounded.. it was fun exchanging views with you with both of us behaving. wow can it be true? can a neo-con and a liberal actually get along dispite the political differences?
on Sep 27, 2005
Besides, he'll never get off, and as you pointed out, they just make up laws as they go along.


I can already see the news item: US occupation force makes up dubious "genocide" law; Saddam Hussein first victim charged with breaking new law.
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