oh yeah and and u can im me msn at xmanja@hotmail.com

hmmm...

I can understand the flag has history. The South had culture and class despite slavery. The flag was not made to be a symbol of the Arian race (better than everybody on the planet) but just a place where they live.

I have mixed feelings about the flag, being that I am Black. To many, slavery was just about money, but to us it was about death. When the South was fighting for its way of life, it included keeping slavery and keeping Blacks as sub-humans even if they were free.


I don't think someone owning he flag is automatically racist, maybe a little ignorant of the other culture under the flag. Remember us? Or maybe you rather forget.


Nevertheless, the flag was not born of hate or fear against any particular person like the swastika. I can see someone liking it or waving it and NOT being racist. I'll admit though, i would be careful when talking to them or when I am in a town full of flags like it. I would feel different and outed wondering if I could live there or not.


I find it ignorant, not racist.

Well, the 1st ammendment protects Johnny Reb's flag along with my hammer and sickle and any other damned symbol.

But I'm reminded of a monument that stands down by the courthouse in Hot Springs, AR ( I live in the "suburbs" which in Arkansas means pastures, hills, and trees ) -- it's a civil war monument that displays the confederate flag...on the same site, there are also US flags and Arkansas flags. I don't really have a problem with it -- it reminds us about history.

I suppose that it boils down to this, for me. Martin Luther King said that he wanted people to be judged not by the color of their skin but by the content of their character. I suppose I'd rather judge people on the content of their character before the flag they might stick on their vehicle as a decal. I suppose your argument is that flying the stars and bars is a character issue...but I don't see it like that.

During the TV run of The Dukes of Hazzard, Confederate Flags became a novelty item. Cars, trucks, bikes and pretty much everything else ended up with that flag. That was before the whole "remove the Confederate Flag from the Capital and state flags" flap, which brought the whole "symbol of hate" idea back into the mainstream.

With the upcoming release of the film, The General Lee is going to sport that spiffy flag on its top and the flag itself is bound to be a prominent prop. Should we expect a remake of the whole Rebel Flag fad too? I haven't heard any "Dixie" horns yet though, so maybe not. ;~D

I have mixed feelings about the flag, being that I am Black. To many, slavery was just about money, but to us it was about death. When the South was fighting for its way of life, it included keeping slavery and keeping Blacks as sub-humans even if they were free.

That's funny. In all my travels through Southern states, and with all my studies of the Civil War, there were a large number of FREE blacks fighting on both sides. In LA, MS, and AL, there were entire regiments of black soldiers fighting for the South. Because it was their home. It was a life they believed in.

Just for clarification? Why did South Carolina fortify Fort Sumter, again? 'cause some one was coming for their slaves? No. The industrialised states of New England were passing tariffs that made it difficult for the South to get the tools and materials necessary to make their products and made the products of New England more inviting. Other issues, including a disagreement about States Rights vs Federal control (gee, does this sound in anyway familiar to what's going on today?) was a large part of it. The North (mainly New England) wanted the Federal government to dictate everything, while the South (generally) was more concerned that each state retain the rights and powers granted to them by the Constitution.

They felt strongly enough about these ideals and their responsibility to all of their people to fight for it.

It is this spirit that is represented by the Confederate flag. Any taint of racism is an after the fact judgement by people that feel it necessary to shove their beliefs down everyone else's throat.

I'm think I'm going to say "screw the union" and "screw the confederacy" and fly a Union Jack. Nah, Scratch that, I'm going to fly the flag of Louis XIV.

I don't know, just saying how I feel about it. Whether the were Blacks fighting on the side of the south or not seems like a footnote. If that is all you know, you fight for it. You might not even like what your state does to you but honor dictated that you stiff fight for it when someone attacks.

Anyway:
It still feels to me like I should watch myself when entering a town or persons home if I see it waving outside.

It just makes me feel wierd. Along with all that good history and stuff was also slavery. Strangely there are times when it doesn't bother me but I guess that depends on how it is being used.

That is how most of us took it, for better or worst.

The flag doesn't offend me though, I just find that some who would display it like it is the flag of the US as ignorant. That is my opinion of them until they open their mouths and either prove it or disprove it. You got the Confederate flag waving outside your home or on a church or on a state capital building, I just have to wonder about you and what you think of my because of the color of my skin.

If you identify with the confederate South, it just seems fitting that you also identify with the way of life of which included slavery. Until you say you don't I don't know; all I see is that you identify with that time period and wave the flag proudly.

Catoon Link

As I wrote before, whether your a history buff, or not, part of the heritage was slavery. Its was part of the economy, and part of the way of life. Under the current US flag, things were worked for change, but that did not happen under the Confederate Flag. They lost remember?

Sure the North was bad, but slaves (or ex-slaves) didn't go north because it was the same; it was better.


Listen, we can argue all day about this. the point is that it offends some because it is a flag stuck in time and during that time their was slavery and many who wanted it to continue. It will offend whether anyone likes it or not and there is a reason for it. It doesn't mean that no one should have it or admire the good points, but guys come on, WE DID NOT SHARE IN THAT GREAT TIMES. It wasn't good for us.

So some are offended, others not.

If you identify with the confederate South, it just seems fitting that you also identify with the way of life of which included slavery. Until you say you don't I don't know; all I see is that you identify with that time period and wave the flag proudly.

Excuse me Joe but "southerners" were NOT the only slave owners. So were a GOOD many "northerners! It was just as much a way of life and part of the economy for the north as it was for the south!

Just as demand for slaves was increasing, however, supply was restricted. The United States Constitution, adopted in 1787, prevented Congress from banning the import of slaves before 1808. In that year, Congress acted to ban further imports. Any new slaves would have to be descendants of ones that were currently in the US. One year earlier, British Parliament banned all forms of slave trade within its empire - the United States gained its independence and hence avoided this ban by just a few years. 1774 Connecticut and Rhode Island prohibit further importation of slaves (although Rhode Island merchants remain in slave trade to other colonies). Slavery in the North Colonial slavery had a slow start, particularly in the North. The proportion there never got much above 5 percent of the total population. Scholars have speculated as to why, without coming to a definite conclusion. Some surmise that indentured servants were fundamentally better suited to the Northern climate, crops, and tasks at hand; some claim that anti-slavery sentiment provided the explanation. At the time of the American Revolution, fewer than 10 percent of the half million slaves in the thirteen colonies resided in the North, working primarily in agriculture. New York had the greatest number, with just over 20,000. New Jersey had close to 12,000 slaves. Vermont was the first Northern region to abolish slavery when it became an independent republic in 1777. Most of the original Northern colonies implemented a process of gradual emancipation in the late eighteenth and early nineteenth centuries, requiring the children of slave mothers to remain in servitude for a set period, typically 28 years. Other regions above the Mason-Dixon line ended slavery upon statehood early in the nineteenth century -- Ohio in 1803 and Indiana in 1816, for instance.

So when you talk about slavery, DO NOT attribute it solely to southern states! And the reason it offends some is that they are not willing to do a little digging to see the facts.

I don't think you got what I said.

The confederate flag was born and died during that time. Slaves being in the North doesn't really mean anything because the north changed. The south, under the confederate flag, didn't and is STUCK in that time frame.

You see what I am saying? Its stuck there. Its stuck there in law and in action. Its like being Russian and hanging the USSR flag. Your identifying with the good and the bad of THAT time frame.

Under the US flag, the north and south changed. Under the confederate flag it did not. Would it have if it won the war? I doubt it. (and I am not just talking about slavery, I'm talkig about racist acts as well)


So for me and some others it is quite clear to wonder if it is safe to walk in a home proudly waving the confederate flag outside its house or a state waving it on its capital building.

You got a bumper sticker; not a big deal. You got a flag in your home handed down from forefathers; so what? You got the flag handing INSIDE your house; not a big deal - it is historic after all. You buy a brand new confederate flag and put it on your front door; ummm... I just have to wonder.


It can be as historic as you want it to be. For some people that time frame wasn't exactly that great. Deal with it. There is a very dirty stain on the flag and it never got the chance to wash it off. No matter how much finger pointing you do showing how the north was just as bad, the north doesn't have a flag totally representing that time frame and lifestyle.

The south does.

First off the Rebel flag or what ever you want to call it is not a symbol of hate towards blacks many blacks in the south fly the flag. Why because they know it's history. Yes the KKK did hurt the flag when they started flying it. But the flag wasn't made by them and isn't a symbol of the KKK. Keep in mind they also used a Cross. The flag is a symbol of not backing down from the government. The reason the war was fought was to let the state not government decide if new states was union or confederate. Not to free slaves. Even after the war some northerners owned slaves. Grant for one. The Confederate flag didn't fly over the slave ships it was Old Glory. The flag might be racist to some. But the ones who find it racist the way they talk they are racist. One Ex. Rev. Al Sharpton. Yes he is doing what he belives should be done but just about everything he says is racist. Say a white man says I can't get a job because they give them to all the blacks that is racist to him but if a black man says them whites want give me a job because im black thats ok. Both are racist statements but the same people who oppose the Confederate flag find the first raceist and the second fine to say. In closing I must just say the Rebel Flag has nothing to do with slavery it is about the south and what the south is. Yes some people use the flag as a symbol of hate but that is the people who don't know any better or is just complety stupid because that is not what it is ment for. The flag is a symbol of independence. If you want to call a flag racist look at the American flag it is the one that flew over slavery for as long as it lasted. Also the flag has never had anything to do with Nazis or Jew haters.

Also your sights about racist symbols are racist in them selves. The one showing all the racist symbols don't show any of the black panther symbols and that is as racist to whites as the kkk is to blacks. But I guess since that is blacks aginst whites to you that is fine and not racist. Also the site showing the cartoons is racist the first one showing the white man and black man is true many blacks did die because of the flag. Because the fought for it they wanted the south to win and many still have son's or daughters that fly the flag. I know your come back to that one they were forced to fight. Many were not forced to fight many wanted to fight. If you want something to wine about turn your attention to what is happening in Africa right now but yall are not worried about that. You like to fight for small stuff that only has a racist meaning to few and most of the few who find the flag racist have no schooling they just flap there lip. Also the cartoon showing that the man with that has a no beer sign and the southern fat man looking like he is mad is racist not all Southern people drink and not all are fat most are not fat because most get out and do hard labor. The blue collar people or rednecks like most call them is why America is so strong because with out them there would be nothing. No corn, no tomatos, no chicken, no beef, no electricty, and no telephones because the blue collar people do all the work on them to keep them running and to feed America. No rednecks means no farmers and no farmers means no food! I am a Redneck, I live in the South, I fly my Confederate flag and am proud of it. But I have many friends of all different backgrounds. I am not a racist person. I just don't like people who have nothing better to do besides disrespect the flag and the South and those who draw off of the tax money of hard working people. I don't care if your white, black, chinese, spanish, or anything else if your to lazy to stop drawing off tax payers money and get a job I don't like you. Yes I know it is hard to get a job but if your trying your doing good just try and make something of your self don't sit at home and have more kids to get more money and then let them grow up and be lazy like you. dabe im not saying that is how you are I don't know you im saying that is the kind of people I have no respect for.

Thank you, joeknowledge, for your insight.

As I said, I really am not trying to convince people that they shouldn't be flying the confederate flag, if that's what they want to do. But, do not be all astounded and aghast and defensive when some people take issue with it. Whether you admit it or not, it has some racist connotations. Therefore, it will always be controversial.

Does it make me racist because I take issue with that flag. Of course not. That's just defensive absurdity. Sheesh...............

Up until the year 1978, there was a law on the books in Missouri called "The Mormon Extermination Act". It was passed in the 1840s. It literally made killing Mormons not only legal, but considered a "patriotic act". If we (as members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints) were to follow the logic of the Confederate Battle Flag, we would consider Missouri a Hate-filled, Religiously bigoted state. However, we don't. Why? Because we don't choose to define the people of an entire state by the acts of a few.

But was Missouri founded and the flag created specifically to defend that law and Missouri's perceived "right" to have such a law?

There is, for example, a flag of Germany and a Nazi flag. I do not associate the one with Germany's darkest years, but I also would not use the other to represent, say, German movies of the 1930s and 1940s which had nothing to do with racism or fascism or other parts of German 1930s culture.

If we want to speak strictly, the Confedrate flag symbolized the Confederacy itself and the right of states to make their own decisions and run their own affairs without federal imposition. It was in no way designated to be a symbol of hate and oppression.
On the contrary, it was designed to symbolize a nation that accepted and employed a type of freedom the South felt it was being denied by their government in Washington.
Only thin-skinned extreme left-wing radicals and hardcore extreme right-wing reactionaries see it as a symbol of hate.